Building ESG Talent for Transformation with Catherine Brennan from Birdeo | ATALK 39

About this ATALK

Welcome to Season 3 of ATALKS – Where Sustainability Has a Voice! 🌱 In this episode, we dive into one of the most pressing challenges companies face today: How to recruit, train, and build ESG talent to meet sustainability challenges. As sustainability becomes a business imperative, organizations must rethink their approach to hiring and upskilling their workforce to drive real transformation.

We’re thrilled to feature 🎙️ Catherine Brennan, Managing Director at Birdeo, a leading recruitment and HR consulting firm specializing in sustainability roles. With over 20 years of experience in corporate transformation, Catherine shares expert insights into the future of ESG talent, the critical skills required, and how companies can embed sustainability across all functions.

In this episode, we discuss:
◾ The biggest challenges in attracting and recruiting sustainability talent.
◾ Why internal mobility, freelancing, and external hiring all play a role in ESG recruitment.
◾ How companies can upskill employees and integrate ESG into every department.
◾ The soft skills that make sustainability professionals successful.
◾ The future of ESG jobs—from AI-powered sustainability roles to biodiversity specialists.

Interview Highlights:
🔹 «Sustainability strategies will only reach their full potential if they are embedded in every function of an organization.»
🔹 «If you want employees to be engaged, you need to engage them—purpose-driven work is now a priority.»
🔹 «Leadership buy-in is critical—real transformation starts at the top.»
🔹 «The demand for ESG specialists is growing, from carbon strategy to AI-driven sustainability solutions.»

🔔 Tune in to learn how companies can future-proof their workforce and attract top ESG talent to lead the sustainability transformation!

📣 Don’t forget to subscribe for more insightful conversations with sustainability leaders shaping the future of business and the planet! 🌿

https://youtu.be/InaYZYVmPIU

Transcript

You can find the full transcript of their conversation below.

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ATALK 39 with Catherine Brennan from Birdeo & Pauline Lamouille from APLANET

Welcome to ATALKS, where sustainability has a voice. I’m Pauline Lamouille, Marketing Director at APLANET, and I will be your host for today’s discussion on sustainability skills and corporate information. We know that the sustainability landscape is evolving quite rapidly with increasing pressure to integrate ESG principles with new ESG regulations such as the CSRD, CSDDD, and a lot more. And we know that the companies are under pressure to integrate those principles not only in their strategy, but also in their workforce. Therefore, how can organizations attract, train and adapt talent to meet ESG challenges? So, to help us solve this, today, we are thrilled to welcome Catherine Brennan, who is Managing Director at Birdeo, the leading recruitment and HR consulting company specializing in sustainability roles. Catherine has over 20 years of experience driving customer relations, e-business strategy and transformation in the European IT sector. She joined Birdeo in 2019, first as a recruitment consultant before rising to lead People4Impact which is Birdeo’s ESG Experts placement brand and since July 2024 she’s been appointed Birdeo’s Managing Director. Catherine is also passionate about Ireland and gender balance leadership and she’s actively involved in the Professional Women’s Network Paris, which is an international community of women executives. Catherine, welcome to ATALKS, we’re excited to have you here. Thank you. Well, thank you Pauline for having me and hopefully I’ll be able to give some insights as to how to solve this big problem. I’m not sure I have all the answers, but in any case, we’ll try to give some hints and, you know, ways of looking at things that can help your viewers. Thank you. I wanted to start more general, you know, understanding the key challenges in recruitment. And we know that companies  are facing big challenges today in attracting and recruiting sustainability talent, particularly in the light of regulatory demands like the CSRD, and the CSDDD. So I wanted to have your point of view on this, on the main challenges, you know, to start the road and then we will enter in all the, you know, the skills, the different trainings and everything that you can share with us. OK. I will split your question into two and we’ll look at recruiting on one side and attracting on the other side because I think it calls upon different answers when it comes to recruiting against. The main challenges that organisations are facing today is to really understand the professionals that they are looking at, you know, to come in and join the organization or that they would like to join the organisations, may not always have the relevant experience in the field because the field of sustainability is still very much evolving. So if we take the example of non financial reporting, obviously there’s very few professionals out there that can pretend to have an experience of the CSRD, because the CSRD first reports are only out now. So the challenge I guess for organisations is to really try to look beyond a similar experience that the candidate may have and to actually think about what are the skills and competencies that they may have developed in other positions and also see the future and the potential. Let me give you 2 examples. When it comes to non financial reporting, obviously CSRD, why you know, if you come across somebody who’s been doing voluntary CSR reporting in the past in France, we have one particular, we had one particular legislation called they pay off before CSRD came into place. Then obviously there’s no reason for that person not to be able to evolve to lead the CSRD. They probably will have something to learn, but it’s also the nature of the topic of sustainability. So that’s the first example. But another example is, you know, maybe I’ll go and look for somebody who currently is in the financial reporting spectrum. And obviously that person can bring in some hard scans. How do I collect data? How do I ensure the data makes sense? How do I audit data? And then the question is if the candidate is actually winning to move into sustainability and learn about sustainability, but give him a chance or give her a chance to actually learn and, you know, take advantage of the hard skills and the competencies they may have developed previously. So the challenge there for organisations is really to try when they’re recruiting to go beyond what’s the, well, you know, what’s the norm, right? What the person has done before. That’s what I want that person to do today. It’s really trying to grasp the, you know, experience in other types of roles that can be relevant into the one they want to fulfil at present. So that when it comes to recruiting, there’s an, there’s another challenge to be honest with you, which is also one of salary because we have a pool of experienced or seasoned professionals that is probably smaller today than what the market requires. And you’re also obviously in an offer and demand scenario. And if the demand is higher than the offer, then it will have an impact on the salary. So that is something to keep in mind as well. So that’s on the recruiting part. On the attracting side of things, I thought it was interesting that you split the two because attracting talents within organisations today and not only in sustainability is something that talent acquisition and hiring managers will have to think about. Because from a candidate perspective, whatever the job is actually, they are increasingly sustainability conscious. And they also expect companies to be able to be very transparent about their strategy and to even go into some details as to, you know, what does it mean for me as a potential employee coming into your organization? What does your sustainability strategy concretely, concretely sorry, mean for me? So one has to be prepared to answer these questions because otherwise you may have candidates that may think that it’s a bit of a greenwashing and that’s not going to actually match what the expectation will be. OK. So yes, it’s just you. You have to attract the right talent with the right hard skills, but also sell your own sustainability strategy and you know, compass towards the future in order to attract key talents. No. So it’s it’s. Absolutely. It’s a combination of the two. And unlike what one may think, it does not apply to the younger generation only. They have expectations, definitely, and they have a very good understanding as to what they want to get out of an organization and out of a job. But it also concerns, you know, professionalism with such a number of experiences and even with experience in sustainability because I guess they have seen how it can be done somewhere else. And if they’re going to move jobs or move organizations, they really want to, and they say that to us on a very regular basis. You know, we want to make sure that senior management and the CEO is really engaged, that we’re not just here to take boxes, that we’re here to work on a full transformation of the product, the services and the organization. So. Not to underestimate the expectations and candidates have. OK. So you’ve tackled, you know, there’s different models regarding recruiting. We have financing, we have internal mobility, we have external hiring, you’ve tackled more external hiring till now. Do you know, because all these approaches are complementary, do you know which approaches you know, are more proving more effective for addressing ESG needs or do we have to combine all these approaches and models for the future sustainability? Yeah. That’s a very good question and it actually brings up, you know, a model that will be a blended model with different options that companies may have. And it will depend on several things. It will depend sometimes on the size of the organization. It will depend on their level of maturity as well on the topic. As you know and you mentioned, we also have people for impact and we have people for impact since 2019. So we also have seen how that particular service offering has been evolving and has been really increasingly responding to organisations needs for freelancers. So let me give you my perspective on this. I, you know, to start with, I actually believe that a mix of the three can actually make sense when it comes to freelancing. That model addresses the immediate expertise gap that you can have in the organization, right, in handling some specific projects. And we’ve seen it again with CSRD, you know, there was a need for somebody coming in and specifically looking at understanding the regulation to start with. And then from that understanding, you know how it’s going to impact my organization and actually bringing in somebody from outside focusing on that particular project will actually deliver probably results faster and, you know, not using the time of the existing resourcing within the team. And I also should say that very often the teams within sustainability are very small. So freelancing can actually indeed address that immediate expertise gap for smaller organisations that maybe at the beginning you know of structuring a sustainability approach. Then it’s also a very cost effective way. Because if you don’t know how impacted you’re going to be by regulations. And if you don’t know, you know which way or which topic you’re going to focus on and consequently whether you’re going to require somebody full time, then having a freelancer coming in doing, you know, kind of a diagnosis to start with it. It can be very cost effective and it can allow smaller organizations to almost fast track sustainability initiatives because you’re bringing somebody who’s done it before may have done it sometimes for your competitors or at least in the same sector. So they also bring the understanding of what the challenges are in your sector, and what’s expected of you in your sector. So you really go faster for larger organisations, but you may be looking for very specific expertise that will come and supplement what you have internally. And I’ll, I’ll give you a, I’ll give you an example. One day we had one of the very large retailer companies in France coming to us. The head of CSR said, «We are actually building a new plant, a new warehouse. And the architects are, you know, offering two options when it comes to energy, positive energy. I’m being asked to give my point of view as the head of CSR tomorrow on that topic, but I’m not an energy, you know, specialist. Help me. So we did by bringing somebody in for half a day of consultancy work that really helped, you know, understanding the two options on the table to actually give her, you know, key points that will help her, you know, make a decision. So you always need somebody who is going to have some very specific expertise that you may not have in your organization and also something that maybe you viewers don’t know. But at least in France, and I think it’s very much true as well in other European countries, from what I have seen, 70% of the workforce in sustainability is made of women. So I’m made of young women, so when they are out of the office for good reasons for a certain, you know, number of months sustainability head of sustainability roles are very difficult to just, you know, dispatch, you know, without with other teams. So bringing in somebody to actually be the interim sustainability head of sustainability is actually something that we are, you know, solicited for on a very regular basis. So that’s, you know, that’s freelancing. So it really brings expertise. It can help fast track and it can help support a team. As I say, that has limited resources and more and more projects, obviously. So now let me go on to internal mobility. I’m actually a big supporter of internal mobility for several reasons, because I have benefited in my own professional career from that and I know that it works on employee retention. I know it is very fulfilling as well for an employee to be able to be on a continuous learning path, you know of new expertise. So, he also has other advantages as you know sustainability within an organization. It’s a lot of change management and to conduct change management, I believe you need to have an in-depth understanding of the company, of its offerings, of its teams, of the culture of, you know, the dynamics between the teams. And the other thing that allows it to be successful in change management, it’s also being able to rely on a strong network within the organization. So I see that there’s an interest in going down the route of internal mobility for these two reasons. I would, however, give one piece of advice, if I can, for that internal mobility to be successful for the employee and for the company. Don’t let the employee alone. First of all, help them by giving them additional training, maybe coaching, you know, mentoring. And, and that’s, that’s something that we’ve been, we, we had the opportunity to do within people for impact. Because you see, you could bring somebody from people for Impact who can come and, and mentor or coach, you know, for the first 3-4 months of the, of, of the person taking up that job. So internal mobility, yes, but it needs to be thoroughly taught. True. And don’t leave that person alone. That’s what I would say. And obviously external hiring, I mean, I touch upon in the first question, but I mean, bringing new talent is also essential for an organization for injecting what I would say fresh perspectives, right? And if you’re really looking for somebody to have deep expertise, it’s probably in leadership roles as well. You know that will be something that would be of benefit or if you are really looking for somebody coming in with a very, very specific set of skills. So, you know, if you want to internalise all of your carbon strategy, then obviously you’re going to be looking to bring somebody who has, you know, experience and expertise on that, on that front. But I actually believe that you can blend the three. You can have the three strategies within an organization. OK, OK, it’s the best of each of them. I can say that. You know, and depending on the moment, depending on your needs and depending on the size and you know, the scalability also of your company. And, and it’s quite, it’s quite interesting to see, you know, freelance for specific needs, specific projects, but also for small companies doing a first diagnosis, then the, the change management may be leading through in house, you know, mobility and then external hiring, you know, for maybe specific expertise or new vision, you know, on the company and coming back on in house mobility. But also we know that key functions within the company may also adapt to sustainability, so ESG needs more, you know, core functions such as marketing, HR, finance. We know now that with CSRD, the non-financial data will have the same importance as auditing financial data, with the same reliability, transparency. So which of these key core functions require, you know, the most urgent transformation? Coaching helps training to align with sustainability goals? So you’re touching upon a point that I’m another strong supporter of and believer in. I actually truly, sincerely believe that sustainability strategies will get to their full potential if sustainability is part of every single function within an organization. That’s my personal belief. And you know, I can see some organizations having done that when their level of maturity is high and in pretty large corporations, but I’m sure it will filter down, trickle down as time goes by.  To answer specifically your question as to which one should we start with, my answer is also going to be: it depends on the core services, on the core needs of organizations. Let me expand on that. If you are an industrial company, and you have industrial sites or if you have a lot of logistics and transport, if that is a core part of your business, then you’re probably going to have to start by that. You’re probably going to have to start by your supply chain because that’s probably where you’re going to get most of your carbon footprint that you need to address. But it’s probably where you’re also going to get the opportunity of implementing sustainability and changes that will also be beneficial to the bottom line of the organization. So I think it really depends on the, you know, on the industry, on the sector that the organization is in. Now obviously the HR function, one would like to think that it’s important to embark HR at a very early age so that HR can in turn work on training programs, for example, would be deployed across the organization, may work on rethinking the job specification as well of employees to actually integrate sustainability within their job. And they also have a role in compensation and benefits and why not integrate, you know, bonuses that will be directly related to KPIs in sustainability. So, HR is also coming back to the first point in terms of attracting talent. HR has a big role to play there. And they have to obviously work on explaining why their organization by their company is the right one to come to and to join, you know, on that sustainability part as well. Now you mentioned finance, I think to be honest with you, a lot of finance people have understood now that you know, finance and non-financial are on the same board, right and and they need to actually increase their competencies on that. You probably think marketing is also important and marketing on 2 levels internal communication, you know, come and support Hector as well, you know, talking to all of the employees, what is our strategy? How do we go about this? What are our goals, how it’s changing the organization. So internal communication is important, but then obviously external communication as well, not only within the non financial reporting that they will publish, publish every year, but also, you know, what are the key messages that they want to send out there when it comes to that, to that topic. And for certain organizations, certain companies, you may have specific marketing messages that you want to ensure you’re putting on your advertising campaigns, you’re putting on your websites that will not be considered as greenwashing, for example. So definitely I mean this, you know, if you’re a B2C company, you definitely need to take these items into consideration. There’s also other functions that we’ll have to, you know, integrate sustainability and understanding the landscape and the expectations of the different stakeholders. Also when it comes to sustainability. And I’m thinking specifically about the legal function and the risk audit function. Given the amount of regulations, especially in Europe that we have, I think the legal department has a key role to play in helping the other departments understand what it means and what it means for us. And when it comes to audited risk, whoever is subjected to CSRD and has done the double materiality exercise understood as well that it’s not only the impact that I have on the environment, but it’s the impact the environment has on my business. So in summary, to be honest with you everybody. Yeah, yeah. The whole culture and the whole company should embark. I know it’s true. And you know, linking this to employee engagement, you’ve talked about HR, you know, with the key messages, the engagement, the awareness of ESG challenges within the company, within the all value chain of the company, how can companies effectively engage and equipped employees with the right tools, knowledge, training to understand and act? So you’re absolutely right, if you want employees to be engaged, you need to engage them. They’re just not going to engage just coming in on the morning morning saying, you know, I’m engaging today. And interestingly enough, I mean, we have seen post COVID actually employee engagement and sustainability has increased because individuals seek more and more purpose driven work. You know, they, they, they actually want to know why they’re getting up in the morning and they actually want to contribute. So the first thing really is to give everybody an understanding, a basic understanding of sustainability concepts because they’re not that simple in fact. And I truly believe that people are ready to learn. And I’m ready to, you know, to, yeah, I’m ready to listen, sorry. I’m ready to learn about it. So it really gives a basic understanding of sustainability concepts, of ESG frameworks and maybe of industry trends as a basic knowledge, right. And then you may have people who are going to say, that’s all I need to know and fine, you know, and I’ll come to it later. And then some people are going to say, OK, what’s next, right? I want to engage even further. So I think as well explaining very clearly the organization’s strategy when it comes to sustainability. You know, what have we decided to do? What are the trajectories that we have decided to take? How does it make us maybe different from the rest of our competitors? Why does it bring an advantage to us? And being open, maybe that’s where we’re lagging. That’s where we still need to work on, right? And when you do that, you go then to the next level, which is, to me, one of the key points. You need to be able to link the company’s CSR strategy with the employee’s own role. What does it mean to me on a daily basis? You know, what does it mean if I’m in marketing and I’m working on new products? What does it mean? What do I have to take into consideration? How do I have to rethink the way I’m doing things? So that means that you go down function by function and you create some tailor made training programs that will address each of the functions. The sustainability strategy at a corporate level will probably have different impacts if I’m again working on new products, if I’m in charge of the logistics, if I’m in charge of purchasing or if I’m in charge of the financial reporting. Find something, OK. And so to me that’s very important. And the last thing but not least is really allow the, you know, the employees that are willing to do something, allow them to do something. Get them into action. You know, give them even very small projects, but give them the signal that they can’t be part of the change and they can actually make that change. Yeah, make them participate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you’ve talked about all these engagement keys. We’ve got the sustainability strategy, what is the company doing? What are the territories? What is our goal at, you know, short, mid, long term? So maybe this type of engagement or training is more interning, you know, HR and the executive board. But then when we have to act on core functions for each person to understand my role, in my day-to-day work, how can I integrate sustainability in what I do? Do we have typical, you know, different types of training certifications? That’s maybe from, you know, from outside, from schools, from, you know, any type of training. Then we can integrate and maybe propose to employees. So the landscape of training offers on that topic has actually evolved over the last few years and the offering is wider and wider. So you actually have Business Schools or Universities that would, you know, provide sometimes MBA-like or shorter training programs that may address a specific function. But you also have, you know, continuous learning type of organisations that would provide training by functions. And I, you know, I have one particular in, in my mind that basically is offering sustainable purchasing, sustainable marketing very soon. One on the legal side then. So you know, that exists today. And sometimes they’re actually short enough training, you know, it could be two or three days. So it’s very easy, you know, set up and you know, it makes it very easy to do. But while talking as well to a lot of CSR managers, a lot of them have told me that they have actually created their own training. OK. Within the organization. OK with HR I think. With HR, sometimes they have, you know, obviously a learning department, learning and training department. So that would come into, you know, helping as well and put in something specific function by function. But the offering exists out there for whoever wants to do it. And then again, I’ve been told on numerous occasions by clients that they have put something together internally. Internally, so that’s why we need to have the executive board on board for them to accept, you know, and to set budgets for that. And I’m, I don’t know if it’s the CSR, you know, chief, the, the chief sustainability officer, that it’s, you know, the, the head and then that should embark all the board or it’s, it’s a global, you know, company decision. Well, obviously the, the, the, the head of CSR has a key role to play right in, in embarking the, the board members. And in France, we actually see that more and more boards now you know, are being trained on this, on this topic and are engaging in understanding as well what the whole organization is putting together to address the, to address the topic. So obviously the head of CSR will have a major role in leading such initiatives and then you know, working with HR, working with the COMEX, you know, the management board to deploy that, but it still very much originates. From. The CSR department. So the first one that we need to train and embark, it’s the board, no? Absolutely, Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, Yes. So we’ve talked about, you know, more hard skills, how to integrate sustainability in core functions, but also maybe specific training on carbon depending on transport or depending on your core business. But are there any soft skills that come up a lot in this job so that we need, you know, to integrate sustainability better in companies? Absolutely and we’ve been in business for 15 years now. So over the years we have indeed seen common, you know, common soft skills from all the professionals, the 1000 of professionals that we have been able to talk to over the years and let me give you a couple of them. I think it’s a job that requires being very curious. We nobody has any definite solution right on how to address the challenges we’re facing today in climate change and other things. So it’s a continuous improvement. It’s a continuous job. So you need to be very curious. You need to look at what others are doing and others, it’s not only your competitors, it’s also, you know, different industries, industries that could be far away from you. And it’s also what’s happening in other countries as well. You know how you know how it’s done. So being curious is extremely important. The second one, it’s to be optimistic. If you’re not optimistic, if you think you know done in dusting, then it’s very it’s going to be quite difficult to go and embark other people. So you need to be optimistic. Not saying you need to be a dreamer, but you need to be optimistic. You also need to be somebody who really wants to work with other people because what you’re doing as a head of sustainability or being part of a small part of sustainability, you don’t work for yourself. You work for something that’s bigger than you. So you need to be able to go and work with other people within your organization, within your own sector. And sometimes you’re going to have to learn with your competitor as well, your competitors and really, you know, have this notion of network, being part of networks to learn from others, to share with others. OK. And that brings me to another essential soft skill I believe that you need to have. It’s humility. Again, you’re working for something that’s bigger than you. You’re working for something you may not see the end result of. So, and again, none of us know exactly what we have to do and how we have to do it. You know, we’re still learning as we go along. So humility, I think, is very important. And then there’s a more common sense type of sockscase that you know will come to mind. You obviously need to be a very good communicator. You need to be able to embark. So you need to be an active listener as well to really understand what people are telling you to then also, you know, address them with their own needs. So active listening empathy. Because you know, you’re driving change, right? And so you need to have some empathy and obviously adaptability, liking change management. If you want things to stay as they are, it’s probably not the right job for you. And then it requires some leadership. I was going to sum it up. You know, it really requires some leadership. And it’s an interesting one because you need leadership, but you need humility at the same time. And the other thing I will say because it’s very important, English is a very important feature to have because again, a lot of stakeholders may not be in your own country, right? You may have to deal with far away suppliers that you work with. You may have to go and read papers, white papers and other documentation that may be actually in English. So English is really mastering English and mastering sustainable sustainability related English is important as well. OK, so these soft skills also can be trained and we can. I think the person should have key abilities, key soft skills. But also you know HR can help give some more training too maybe. Or do you know something about leadership or or? In terms of. Communicate. What do you think? Yes, it should be like. Yes, you, you probably can be trained on being, you know, more assertive than having more leadership and, you know, improving your communication. To be honest with you, I’m not sure you can be trained on being curious, on being optimistic. On certain soft skills you should add it like in internal form from your birth. OK, maybe more to conclude, I wanted to ask you about, you know, driving this change and maybe if you can give me or explain what are the critical first steps company should take to embed sustainability into their traditional roles and accelerate, you know, the transformation to change management within the company to understand, we’ve seen we’ve seen trainings, we’ve seen skills, hard skills, soft skills, types of recruiting, but what are the first steps for a company to embed? Engagement from the CEO or the board of management, it has to come from the top. The top has to really, yeah, demonstrate their commitment, you know, to driving that change towards a more sustainable organization. So the very first step to me has to come from the top. OK, OK, OK. So the top management should be trained or. Yeah, they should. They should be trained. They should be trained on, you know, again on the key concepts, OK, But it’s also should have a deep understanding as to the what their own organization is already doing, making sure that they know that, but also probably to understand that if they don’t act, if they don’t move forward, what are the risk to the what are the risk of doing nothing? OK, OK. I think it’s an interesting angle to think about. OK, well, it’s very interesting. And do you see like so we’ve embarked the board. Do you see any promising I, I would say greening, but it’s not a really a correct, you know, word, but more sustainable jobs that becomes in the future that we need, you know, in house because we know that we have freelancers, we have experts, you know, that can join for project specific project management to coach, to mentor. But in house within the companies, what would be, you know, the more the most promising emerging ring job? I don’t know we, we do not have crystal balls. You know to, to to to know the future. But do you have any, any insights? There’s probably some very technical specific items that have yet to be addressed systematically by organisations today. Obviously, you know, there’s a lot of work going on on the reporting on the carbon footprint. There’s probably still work to be done on biodiversity. There’s work to be done on water. Water is an interesting topic actually. There’s probably still work to be done on material, you know, alternative material that one can be using. There’s probably still work to be done in research and development on the industrial processes, you know, linked to energy savings. So you have now really companies that really go into very much the details into innovation in changing the way things are done. And then probably you, we will need and we already see today other hard skills coming into the field of sustainability. So you know, we’re talking about risk and audit and legal or whatever. But for example, talking about data and artificial intelligence to the service of sustainability data is, you know, how do I collect data? How do I analyse data? What do I get out of it? How is the data useful to the business to actually improve, maybe on transport, maybe on life cycle assessment of the product or, you know, end of life of the product. So data collecting data and making sense of that data. So data scientists, for example, I think you know, should take a look at how they can contribute as well to the world of sustainability and artificial intelligence will come into play. And it comes into play in a lot of other sections and sectors and functions, you know, in helping, probably going faster in collecting data again, you know, understanding and, you know, coming up with different models, I think predictive models as well, You know, really trying to go into perspective, you know, what is it going to look like not in five years from now, but in 2050, a hundred years from now? You know, there’s a lot of I. Don’t know if. It’s you that there can be a lot of things to be done there as well. You know, if you’re thinking about buildings, buildings and, you know, huge infrastructure projects and you know, you really have to try to figure out, but how is that going to look like even, you know, climate change and everything else, how is that going to look like in 1500 years from now? Or if it’s agriculture soil, what for? Example as well. Absolutely. Acts of the climate change on this soil or in this forest or in this, you know, space.  OK, great. Well, thank you. Thank you very much, Catherine , for sharing all these insights on how companies can navigate, you know, the evolving world of ESG talent from recruitment to upskilling and future proofing your workforce. Thanks a lot. If today’s discussion inspired you in general, I’m talking to the audience. Don’t forget to subscribe to ATALKS for more conversation on the future of sustainability and ESG leadership. And thank you. Thank you so much, Catherine. Thank you Catherine for joining me today and for sharing all your experience on HR, on recruitment, on all the skills and everything that we will need to integrate sustainability within companies and it’s key for the future. Thank you for having me, Pauline. Thank you so much.

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